Morgan Scoggins
From:
Georgia, USA
Posted 24 Nov 2010 3:19 pm
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| Well, I guess it had to happen sooner or later. After 3 years of learning everything I can on 8 sting non pedal steel, I have gotten hung up on the "Blues".Not so much the old 12 bar blues progression from songs by Muddy Waters,B.B. King or John Lee Hooker, but some "bluesy" style licks to spice up my Western Swing & Country. I have picked up a lot of stuff from Don Helms playing behind Hank Williams and some traditional "rockabilly" licks in the style of Carl Perkins. I have a question that has got me puzzled about harmony.When you play a typical minor blues scale suce as E minor ( E G A B D) over a Emajor chord, shouldn't you get a dissonant sound because of the minor third ( G ) in the scale being played against the G# in the E7 chord? I hear this all the time and I can only guess that the minor third is used as a passing tone or the rythim guitar is using power chords without the third. Am I close to an answer or is something else the explination? _________________ "Shoot low boys, the're ridin' Shetlands" |
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
Posted 24 Nov 2010 3:32 pm
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| It's simple - most blues is not based on Western minor scale notes. The blue third isn't necessarily either a major or minor third - it can be anywhere that 'fits', and often in-between or moving. Depending on the context, many blues players (including me) often play that note starting more like a minor third and move towards the major third, but not necessarily all the way - again, it depends on the context. But in general, a soloist's minor-scale note G may well clash if the rhythm section is playing a hard-major E chord and the G is emphasized against it. Passing tones can do most anything, but emphasis is critical. All of this is just another reason why 'power chords' - 1 and 5, omitting the third - are used so much in blues and rock and roll. This leaves more sonic space for the soloist to decide what belongs there. Blues is properly played by listening to a lot of blues and learning to feel what fits against the background, not using a scale formula. My opinion. |
Scott Shewbridge
From:
Bay Area, N. California
Posted 26 Nov 2010 10:05 pm
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You both should be thrown in prison. Folsom Prison that is.  dah dah dah dyah dyah dah dyoin' don. Emphasis on the dyoin'. |
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
Posted 29 Nov 2010 2:25 am
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| In FPB, your dyoin' is played over a V chord, so even played completely straight, that note serves as a #5, not a b3 - I hear it as part of a Vaug, not a Im. Anyway, dyoin' is generally bent to whatever the player/singer feels like. Even the original - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayLFNFlc9hU My point was that if you emphasize a b3 (a G note playing in E) while the rhythm section is hitting a hard E triad (E, G#, B), it will (to my ears, in most situations) clash, but that there are many ways to avoid a major/minor conundrum while playing blues. Folsom Prison is a good example that illustrates how to do that, but doesn't contradict what I said. |
Scott Shewbridge
From:
Bay Area, N. California
Posted 29 Nov 2010 8:11 am
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No argument from me, just tryin' to say "Yah - what he said!" in a fun way.  |
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Posted 29 Nov 2010 8:26 am
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| In Hank Williams songs, Don Helms often used the the minor triad as as the top end of a 9th chord. For example, you play F9 in the key of C on the top 3 strings at the 11th fret. The fact that this is also a Cm chord is coincidence. The Eb note on the 2nd string isn't functioning as a C minor scale note - it's functioning as the b7 of the F7 chord. Don Helms wasn't playing in a minor key to get that bluesy sound. He was adding a b7 note to the major chords. When you think of it that way, it makes more sense. |
Dana Blodgett
From:
California, USA
Posted 29 Nov 2010 7:17 pm question about the minor bluesscale
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| Morgan, In my opinion the E-G-A-B-D could be interpreted as the E minor pentatonic scale, which the formula is 1-b3-4-5b-7. This five note scale works good over most major and minor chords. It is formed from major seconds and minor thirds. It is the scale most rock and blues players use while improvising. This scale has five modes begining at the root position. It is similar to the "Blues minor scale" which has a # 4(b5)E-G-A-A#-(Bb)-B-D.This is a six note scale. The Minor pentatonic and the blues minor scale will work well over most minor triads, major triads, minor sevenths, minor ninths, maj 9,maj 6, maj 7 maj 6/9, minor eleventh, Dom 7, dom 9, dom 13, dom 7#9, sus 4, sus 7, sus 13 and other chords. This is just MY opinion. The pentatonic sounds good over these chords, but doesnt always start on the chordal root! How does one explain playing the Blues?! There is an element of feeling that is hard to explain. I agree with Dave about the "power chords" or 5 chords that could be either major or minor" IMHO. A lot of this stuff is arguable because there are scales within scales and modes within modes.The Blues usually involves a lot of bending of the notes which might go to where Dave was talking about The "western" scales. In some "Eastern scales" the chromatitism is broken down even further than the usual 12 intervals. Again these are just my opinions and am open to any corrections to these thoughts! _________________ Dana Blodgett From Los Osos,Ca. '74 ShoBud 6140 3+4, Martins HD28,D-12-28, D-15,'65 Gibson LG-1, '77 Gibson Les Paul special dbl cut p-90's, Les Paul Special p-100's,Les paul Special Hybrid(maple top) hbkr's,'68 Fender Strat reissue, Fender Squire Jazz bass,Epi mandolin,Epi Wilshire '66 reissue, Kamaka Concert uke, 70's Kamaka Soprano Uke, Fender Super amp, Ampeg ba112 bass amp,60's harmony banjo,'00 Gibson SG Supreme |
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
Posted 29 Nov 2010 7:44 pm
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OK, Scott - I guess my sense of humor is a hair frayed lately.  |
Scott Shewbridge
From:
Bay Area, N. California
Posted 29 Nov 2010 8:45 pm
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OK now your braggin' - you still have hair to fray!  Dave - your youtube post was perfect. It also turned me on to something I didn't know about before: Crescent City Blues. Following one of the related video tabs, it seems that Mr. Cash "borrowed" a New Orleans-influenced jazz tune from Gordon Jenkins, and gave it some blood and guts. Johnny Cash's version is so much more elemental and a much better example of the minor/major ambiguity than the original tune. The internet and the interaction on this board is truly amazing, I would never have learned this otherwise. Thank you! |
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
Posted 29 Nov 2010 9:46 pm
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| Yup - Gordon Jenkins' Crescent City Blues certainly preceded Folsom Prison Blues and the resemblance is remarkable, isn't it? In fact, CCB exploits a lot more advanced harmonic ideas - Cash streamlined it a lot, revved it up, and adjusted the lyrics to fit. To me, it works both ways, one of the great things about blues. It would be kinda' cool to do Crescent City Blues with a good female blues singer, and wait to see how many people come up to complain we're ripping off JC. |
Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
Posted 29 Nov 2010 10:39 pm
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| A lot of times even top shelf pedal steel players tune their major thirds flat. Probably so they can play Folsom Prison.
How the heck does it know?
EJL |
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Posted 30 Nov 2010 8:27 am
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| Just trying to be helpful, Eric. Most of the Hank Williams songs are in major keys. When Don plays the b3 note, it's either as a passing tone or as the b7 of the IV chord. _________________ -𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
Posted 30 Nov 2010 10:19 am
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| Jeeez. Don't be so sensitive. You'd think I locked your post or something..
EJL |
Morgan Scoggins
From:
Georgia, USA
Posted 3 Dec 2010 8:04 am
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| Thanks a lot for the help. I have learned one thing about all this, the music has been around forever and our form of music notation is simply a not quite perfect attempt to put something down on paper that can only be expressed in a tonal sense. I bet guys like Speedy West,Thumbs Carlile,Les Paul, Django Reinhardt,and Hank Garland didn't spend much time studying music theory. They simply learned how to take the sounds they hear in their heads and express it with the guitar. That is why you find people who have little or no music traning that are able to play improvised melodies. I read that Django Reinhardt could not read or write! Anyway, I think I am ,at last, headed in the right direction.I have always been a late bloomer. In a couple of years, I might be a 65 year old prodigy. _________________ "Shoot low boys, the're ridin' Shetlands" |
